Inspiring Pastoral Counselor Jenny Miller Discusses Attachment Styles in MLC

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A midlife crisis is more than just a cultural stereotype.

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It's a real psychological struggle that can surface between the

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ages of 40 and 60,

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often triggered by aging, loss or unmet

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expectations. It can lead individuals to question their identity,

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make impulsive choices, or abruptly

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abandon long term commitments.

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While not officially classified as a mental illness,

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the emotional and relational fallout is very real,

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especially for the spouses and families left behind.

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This podcast gives voice to those living through the aftermath,

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exposing the hidden pain and seeking accountability.

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Healing and Understanding the

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stories and events discussed in this podcast are based on our guest experiences

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and are intended for informational and entertainment purposes. Purposes only.

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They should not be considered legal, medical or professional advice.

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Any names, locations or identifying details have been changed to

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protect privacy. Any similarities to actual persons, living or dead,

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or real events are purely coincidental. The views and opinions expressed by

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guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the

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podcast creators. Listeners should consult with a qualified professional regarding

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their own circumstances. Foreign hello

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everybody. Thanks for joining us today. This is your host, Trina,

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and today I'm going to be introducing you to my friend

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Jenny Miller. Jenny Miller is a counselor.

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She's got a lot going on here. Going to give you a little background on

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Jenny. All right, so Jenny's story can starts back

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when she was a child. She had many struggles with abuse, addiction,

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rejection, abandonment and trauma. She's been a client

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of professional counseling services for many years. So she really

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knows how how it is to be on on the side of the patient

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being counseled. Back in 2012, after her

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family moved into their forever home in the country, she decided to pursue becoming

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a pastoral counselor. Little did she know that only a few months later,

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after she had submitted her college application, she was going to be diagnosed

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with breast cancer. That was in 2013. And then she began two

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years of grueling chemotherapy treatments,

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surgeries and radiation.

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In 2014, Jenny reapplied to college and entered a psychology program.

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She graduated in 2015 with a Bachelor of Science in Crisis

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and Trauma Counseling from Liberty University and she was summa

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cum laude. Yay Jenny. In 2017,

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after encountering some personal difficulties, she reentered the therapy

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process with a trauma trained counselor and discovered that she

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had been suffering from complex PTSD and anxiety and that began

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her personal work of healing from trauma. And actually that was,

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I believe that was when she also encountered bomb

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drop. Actually, you know what, maybe that wasn't bomb. Maybe bomb drop was later.

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But we're going to find out today. In 2017,

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Jenny graduated from Liberty University with a master's in pastoral

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counseling with an emphasis in crisis and trauma counseling with high

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distinction. She's such a go getter. She's awesome. She completed

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her graduate level internship at a counseling agency where she also filled the role

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of program manager. And in 2021, she became an ordained

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minister through the Freedom Church where she continues to volunteer

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in various capacities, including the worship team as a musician and singer.

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This girl's multi talented. Let's see.

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She has recently been accepted into the Walden University where she's pursuing a

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second master's degree and clinical licensure

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in their clinical mental health counseling program with

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an emphasis in crisis and trauma.

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Um, and Jenny also served as volunteer program director because,

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you know, she didn't have enough things going on. So from 2010 to 2019,

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she was volunteer program director for she Recovery,

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which is a ministry devoted to helping women recover and heal from sexual addiction.

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Her personal story of freedom has been featured in Dirty Girls

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Come Clean by author Crystal Renaud. She's also blessed to be

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a contributor to the 90 days of wholeness devotional. And her undergrad work

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was completed working with survivors of sex trafficking at a restorative

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residential program in the city of Baltimore, Maryland.

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And so I'm excited for you guys to meet Jenny. Today we're

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going to talk about the primary attachment styles that we see throughout mlc,

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which is avoidant personality style and the anxious.

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Or, I'm sorry, avoidant. Avoidant personality style. Well, avoidant attachment

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style. There you go. And the anxious attachment style. I had never heard of attachment

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styles remotely until, until I was

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introduced to the world of mlc. So here we go.

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Here's Jenny.

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All right. Hey guys, thanks so much for joining us today.

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I have got the Jenny Miller who is.

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She's been in the counseling industry for over eight years now.

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She specializes in trauma. And would

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you believe that Jenny actually has experienced midlife

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crisis as a. The spouse of a MLC er?

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She's a forward moving spouse and she did not even see the bomb

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drop coming. And she's going to tell us a little about her situation and

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answer, she's going to know, answer some questions I have here on attachment styles.

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We're going to talk about how to find a therapist that truly knows and understands

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MLC and the effect on children and

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all kinds of stuff. So thank you. Jenny, thanks for joining us today.

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Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Sure.

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So, okay, so you got, you were hit with a bomb drop.

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Did you see it coming? No. I mean,

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of course, sitting here, looking back we all see things that we

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previously didn't see before, but nothing that would warrant, you know,

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a bomb drop of that type. Mine was in February of 2023,

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and everything was going pretty well the month before.

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A small argument really just led to a week of silence.

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And then before I knew it, the speech that we all hear, you know,

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love you, but not in love with you anymore, want to leave.

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Um, so, yeah, it was definitely shocking.

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Wow. And you guys have been married how long for?

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22 years. Oh, sorry about that.

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Wow, 22 years. Long time. But you've got the.

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All the skill set there for counseling and therapy

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and. And so you got to put it to good use.

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Well, I will say I. I had to keep counseling through the

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whole nightmare, which was extremely difficult. Um,

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and you would think that I knew exactly what was going on. I. I know

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a lot about trauma, but this really hadn't heard about.

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And every colleague and person I tried to

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find and talk to about it really didn't know a lot about it

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and hadn't really heard a lot about it. So I felt like I was going

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to school all over again to try to learn what this was and what on

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earth was going on with me. Yeah.

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Did. At what point did you realize that it

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was. That it wasn't maybe just an affair or a

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midlife crisis direction?

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I mean, I. I hear a lot of people say this, and it was this

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true of me. It was like an alien took over. Like it was not the

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person that I knew. And so it just.

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Nothing made sense. Nothing that was being said made sense. I.

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I felt like I was in an alternate reality. You know, my.

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The rug was pulled out from underneath of me, so it was very disorienting.

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And just being the person that I am, I'm googling.

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I'm searching everything I can to try to find out, you know,

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to find out that this actually is a phenomenon. If finding a whole group,

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you know, support group online about it was

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relieving, but also mind blowing to me that

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this was a thing. It is. You know, when you realize,

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wow, there's thousands of people, you know, around the world that

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have been hit with this bomb drop and this.

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I think, like, you called it an alien situation, and all the

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discard and the things that go along with it, it's. It's sort of. It's really

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sad on that level to think that there's so many people in pain like that.

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So, okay, we'll start, I guess, with attachment styles, because that's something I had

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never heard of. Until the last year. And now it seems to be the buzzword.

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Everywhere I. I turn, I hear about attachment styles.

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Yes. And a lot of people who have

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gone through MLC tend to be what's called the avoidant

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attachment style. So the best way I describe it to

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clients is that, let's say, you know, when a baby is born, you know,

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they cannot do anything for themselves. All they can do is cry

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when they have needs. You know, their diapers wet, they cry. They're hungry, they cry,

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they're cold, they cry. And so how a parent responds to

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that need begins that brain development of,

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okay, when I express myself, I'm going to have my needs met.

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Fast forward. You know, kids are toddlers. You know,

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they're learning to walk to get away from their parents and explore

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the world. But when they are afraid or they need comfort or they need

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something because their emotions are really big, we know terrible Jews, they're showing those

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big emotions. How a parent responds to that solidifies

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their attachment. Is this a safe attachment for me where I'm going

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to get my needs met? So there's many different types of attachment

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styles, but the two that most often get talked about are the anxious and the

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avoidant. So if my parent responds to me or my caregiver responds

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to me in a good way, I have a secure attachment. I know I'm going

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to express myself. I'm going to get my needs met. But let's say a parent

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is overwhelmed by their crying child, and they either get really

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angry or they withdraw completely. And that child,

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let's say we'll talk about the avoidant, they learn,

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okay, expressing is not going to get my needs met. Maybe I won't have

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needs, and that in some way will in turn get my

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needs met. And obviously, this is not happening on a conscious level because

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little kids don't have that part of their brain grown yet. This is a very

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unconscious thing that's happening. And so fast

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forward into adulthood, you have people that avoid and

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shut off that part of themselves. They have trouble identifying

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their emotions, expressing their emotions.

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Usually it builds to a point and then there's a kind of explosion.

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But when you couple that with trauma in any

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way, whether that be physical, emotional, verbal, and that also

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includes neglect, too, not providing for needs.

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Couple that together and it's almost like a volcano that is

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pressurizing under the surface. Wow,

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midlife. In that midlife transition that

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we all go through when we're like, whoa, am I where I need to be

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at this point in my life? It's the perfect storm. Wow.

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For it to blow. So if, let's say an infant

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or very young child is going in that direction of the

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avoidant, there may be slightly neglectful, you know, a parent that's

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a little neglectful or, and not addressing their needs as quickly

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and you know, not by choice but just because they

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don't know. But do the, do you see symptoms

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of, of or characteristics of the avoidant mindset

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as, as a child? Maybe in kindergarten, first grade, second grade,

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you know, sixth grade, middle school. A Hyper independence

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can be one of those of like, you know, taking care of themselves,

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being alone, being okay with just

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because they have to. They're. They're not able to get their needs

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met so they figure it out on their own. Okay. So they

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really sort of self.

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They just depend on themselves rel. I guess they learn to rely

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on just themselves kind of thing. Right? Yes.

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Okay, so. And then any tips then

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for young parents? Because that's um, A lot of us are

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now have. Find ourselves with little grandchildren or grandchildren on the way.

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So. So let's say baby's crying. What are the best things to do?

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Well, yes, obviously, you know, when they're,

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when they're small, you know, don't be afraid if I let my baby cry too

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long, they're going to turn into an avoidant attachment. This is a, a pattern of

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development that goes all the way through, you know, the lifespan that

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they learn. Um, but I, one thing that's very surprising

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that I hear from clients is that they'll come in and they'll say, you know,

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I didn't have any abuse happen. Everything was okay. I don't know why.

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I have a hard time expressing my feelings. And I say, okay, were you super

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responsible? Like, did you take on stuff that wasn't

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yours to take on? And they'd be like, yeah. And I'd be like, well,

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did your parents step in and say, hey, that wasn't your role, that's my job?

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No. So that hyper independence can. Could be

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them taking on things that belong to other people, which can

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be some of the things that you hear from avoidance of like, you know,

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that I, I can't be everything that you need.

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Your expectations are too much and they may not be, but in their minds,

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any kind of dependence on them can make them angry

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or make them shut down or pull back even more.

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That's really sad. Wow.

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Um, okay. And. And the other

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one you discussed was the anxious. Anxious,

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yes. And, and not to generalize, but typically the left behind

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spouse a lot of times can Be more. It's a, it's the most common pairing,

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the anxious and the avoidant. So what happens when that person pulls away as an

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anxious attachment? You are moving in. You're kind of doing a

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dance around the avoidant. You're maybe trying too hard

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or over functioning is a big one. I want to, you know,

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when you're quiet, let me know what's going on so we can make this right.

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So a lot of us left behind spouses are helpers,

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we are givers, we are empathetic. We want to

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make things right. For, for an avoidant person that can feel overwhelming and

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make them what I call turtle ends or even say there's

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nothing wrong, everything's okay.

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Wait, so turtle, turtle, meaning they just. Kind of go in

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their shell like going, going deep into themselves.

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What causes an avoidant to not appreciate the anxious?

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Because you would think, like rationally you would think that an,

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an avoidant would say oh, thank you so much for the advice or whatever,

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you know, and, and not turtle.

238
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Well, when you're not used to having somebody anticipate your needs and

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you're hyper independent, it's going to feel really weird. You don't know what to do

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with it. Somebody actually being attuned to your needs and wanting to take care of

241
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you or wanting to help you or wanting to be close, you know, with you

242
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emotionally, you're. You were never taught that. And so the avoidant

243
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avoids that. Wow.

244
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Wow. So when people go through, let's say you've got clients that

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come in and, and you realize, let's say

246
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there's a couple and then so one's an avoidant, one's in anxious do. Are there

247
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ways to work on that so that they can see that and

248
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work together? Yes. The good news is your attachment style

249
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is not fused like personality. It can change.

250
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You can actually become a secure, attached person.

251
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It takes work. It's first realizing, oh, these are the

252
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things I'm doing, that's not so healthy. Maybe I'm over functioning or under functioning

253
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in a relationship. And so you learn how to be settled

254
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and regulated on your own.

255
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So for the anxious person, it could be like I've texted my

256
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significant other and they're not texting me back, oh my goodness, something's wrong or they

257
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don't love me anymore. Or it can really go to the extreme where you're learning

258
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to self regulate, you're learning to, you know, everything is okay. It doesn't have to

259
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be the worst case scenario scenario, you know, and the avoidant would, would Be

260
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willing to kind of have the more hard conversations and share and step

261
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up, you know, talk when they're overwhelmed instead of wanting

262
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to pull away and shut down. Yeah. Wow. And when you bring

263
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that up to them, do they often realize, like, yeah, I. I just totally shut

264
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down and, and think nothing of it? They don't realize. Well, not everyone is

265
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self aware, so self awareness is a big first step to realize.

266
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Oh, yeah, I do this. Um, but typically this dance

267
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is like a dance. It works because everybody plays their part, but it doesn't necessarily

268
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mean it's a healthy dance. And usually the person

269
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that, you know is the most troubled is the one that brings up that they're

270
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having an issue or a problem. So it does take both people to.

271
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To need to work on it to change that dynamic. But at

272
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least one person can start that process. Mm.

273
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And then avoidance can become eventually not so

274
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scared to put their little turtle head back in the shell. And can. Can they

275
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learn or grow to appreciate the help from somebody who's secure and

276
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just wants to help them? Absolutely, yes. And then what about,

277
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let's say somebody is a secure or anxious and they need,

278
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they would like, support or understanding or something.

279
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Our avoidance typically able to. To provide

280
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that, or do they just not see that

281
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somebody needs help on some level?

282
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I'm not sure how to answer that one. Maybe you ask the

283
00:19:07,470 --> 00:19:10,330
question. Ask the question. I'll ask it again. It's more like. So in my head,

284
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I'm thinking, okay, so the anxious. I mean, I'm sorry, the avoidant is avoiding.

285
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They're not letting somebody help them. But I'm wondering if they're

286
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able to help others. You know, I,

287
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I think it's. It's an issue of safety, like, you know,

288
00:19:27,090 --> 00:19:30,830
thinking about vulnerability. And when we're in close, intimate relationships, we're vulnerable.

289
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Yeah. And so vulnerability is. I think I heard

290
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somewhere in a book it said that courage is risk times vulnerability.

291
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And so if you think about a math equation, anything times zero is zero.

292
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So, you know, if there's no risk, hey, I can be really vulnerable.

293
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But still there's no courage because there's absolutely no risk involved.

294
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And so when that level gets higher for

295
00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:59,290
the avoidant, it's going to get trickier, you know, because I think at the

296
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root of it is that fear of abandonment and rejection.

297
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Because. And it's. And. And typically avoidance will bail first because

298
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they don't want to experience that, so they'll be the first ones to pull away

299
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and to shut down. And they're really setting a Boundary against receiving

300
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care and receiving love, what they so desperately probably want deep

301
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down at the core. Longing, which I think plays so much into midlife

302
00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:29,010
crisis. And why when the bomb drop happens, there's usually an affair, a partner

303
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:32,890
involved, if not right, then very soon

304
00:20:33,390 --> 00:20:36,530
after. Because it is a way for them to kind of

305
00:20:37,030 --> 00:20:39,130
say. And a lot of them say, it's my time to be happy,

306
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,880
you know, which kind of speaks to a lifetime of avoidance. And if there's trauma

307
00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,640
involved, not having their needs met, that all of a sudden it's time for

308
00:20:49,140 --> 00:20:52,360
them to have the. Their needs met that they kind of have been avoiding their

309
00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:56,080
whole life, really. And the affair partner serves a.

310
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A temporary, superficial way of getting that need met.

311
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:08,020
Wow. Um, okay. And then is.

312
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,980
Does that sort of go with limerence? How does limerence.

313
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How does limerence play into if somebody's an avoidant?

314
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,899
I guess so the way I like to explain how

315
00:21:21,399 --> 00:21:23,580
this works in our brain, and I do it in a very basic level,

316
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,780
so it's understandable for most people, unless you are geek like me and you love

317
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,860
neuroscience and you really want to get into it. But think about. We have left

318
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,930
brain, right brain, our left. Our functional, rational, logical processing

319
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:39,730
center of our brain that we make decisions with. Then we have that emotional limbic

320
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system which is our reward center. And that's like the. The lays

321
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:46,530
out the. All of our experiences of our. Our lives. And then you have,

322
00:21:46,690 --> 00:21:50,090
you know, your nervous system that gets activated. We've heard of fight,

323
00:21:50,590 --> 00:21:53,850
flight, or freeze. So if an experience happens in that

324
00:21:54,350 --> 00:21:57,370
emotional brain that is a positive experience, great.

325
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We're able to process that. We're able to logically rationalize that. But if it's

326
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a threat to our emotional survival, physical survival,

327
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:09,170
and our emotional brain says this is not good, it will activate

328
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that nervous system to either shut down, to run, to fight. So when we know

329
00:22:14,190 --> 00:22:17,890
about these two sides of our brain, in that emotional

330
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:22,010
center is that deep connecting place within us that we feel experience,

331
00:22:22,090 --> 00:22:24,890
we feel emotion, we feel the longing, we bond.

332
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And so that's the part that kind of takes over

333
00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:33,860
when this happens. It shuts that rational, logical part down and

334
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:36,980
kind of goes into this crisis mode.

335
00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:40,700
And so a lot of people describe that,

336
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,540
have been through this, describe it like a fog. And in the counseling world,

337
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,420
we would most liken that. Liken that to what's called dissociation. So when you go

338
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,460
through something really overwhelming like trauma, your brain naturally will

339
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,070
dissociate or pull that away and will either put

340
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it far away from us in the unconscious brain. Or far enough away that

341
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we don't have to think about it because it's so overwhelming. And it's

342
00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:08,270
doing it for our emotional survival. And so when you're in that dysregulated

343
00:23:08,770 --> 00:23:11,630
state, you feel very numb sometimes and detached.

344
00:23:12,430 --> 00:23:16,030
And so imagine going through this is why they say, I just. I don't

345
00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:18,630
have any feelings anymore. I don't love you anymore. I don't even know what I

346
00:23:19,130 --> 00:23:23,300
want. I'm not happy. Like, they're so disconnected. And so the limerence

347
00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:27,100
is that obsessive type of love that

348
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,420
you hear, like love sickness. It's like, oh, I just met you. I am so

349
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,740
obsessed with you. It's not in reality, but it's almost in an addictive

350
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,180
way, this surge of, like, dopamine that they

351
00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:43,940
finally can feel something, but it's

352
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,260
really like an addictive kind of surge that they just almost become addicted

353
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,460
to that. And so whatever that is, whoever that is, it serves

354
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,820
that purpose for them, like a drug keeps them feeling

355
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,580
something, and they mistake that for true love. I finally

356
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,860
found happiness and. And almost like throw everything to the wind

357
00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:09,820
and chase after that, even to the detriment of themselves and

358
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,180
their livelihoods, whether it's money, their job.

359
00:24:13,780 --> 00:24:17,630
Wow. You know, it's interesting when you mentioned that dissociation,

360
00:24:18,130 --> 00:24:20,270
I think you called it of, you know, because I know when people are in

361
00:24:20,770 --> 00:24:24,030
a really horrendous, you know, an attack, Let.

362
00:24:24,530 --> 00:24:27,350
Let. Let's say they're assaulted or an attack of some sort,

363
00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:29,670
and they. They often say they.

364
00:24:30,790 --> 00:24:34,110
They move away from their body and they can. They feel like they're a separate

365
00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:37,870
person. They can see something happening, but they're just not even there. And they're just

366
00:24:38,370 --> 00:24:41,430
like, sort of watching. It is. Is that similar? I.

367
00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:45,150
I think I've heard MLC or say something similar to that. Yes.

368
00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:49,070
And it is. It's the brain's way of keeping us alive. If we were

369
00:24:49,570 --> 00:24:52,430
to fully, you know, take that on,

370
00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:55,950
we would. We would break down. So it's our brain's way of

371
00:24:56,510 --> 00:25:00,269
pulling that away and kind of locking that behind closed doors.

372
00:25:00,769 --> 00:25:03,750
This is why some people who have gone through trauma don't remember it. And they

373
00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:06,750
say that they have periods of their life that. That are blacked out. They don't

374
00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:11,070
have childhood memories. That's repressed because that's the brain's way of,

375
00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:14,650
you know, protecting itself from. From that. But we

376
00:25:15,150 --> 00:25:18,210
know it just doesn't disappear. It's stored in the unconscious. It's stored in the body.

377
00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:22,410
Um, and so imagine for someone that is Avoidant that has

378
00:25:22,910 --> 00:25:26,810
gone through any traumatic experience. And trauma. People think of trauma like

379
00:25:27,310 --> 00:25:30,330
big T trauma, sometimes like abuse and car accidents and war

380
00:25:30,830 --> 00:25:34,050
and things like that. But little T trauma has the same effect.

381
00:25:34,450 --> 00:25:38,760
And this could be prolonged emotional abuse or neglect or not

382
00:25:39,260 --> 00:25:42,400
meeting. It's anything that overwhelms your ability to cope.

383
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,400
And so a lot of people go through trauma, but they do fine.

384
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,600
Um, it doesn't become a crisis for them. But again,

385
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,280
if you're dissociated and, and, and detached from

386
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,800
the, from the emotional effects of that, it comes

387
00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,840
calling at some point in your life.

388
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:03,520
Is there a connection there with narcissism,

389
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,460
Covert, overt, any of those?

390
00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:11,740
I think there can be. Not that every MLC or obviously,

391
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,700
you know, and I think the word narcissist is, is overused. A lot

392
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,500
of times, you know, people can have narcissistic tendencies. It doesn't mean

393
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,380
that they're a diagnosed narcissist. But a

394
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,820
lot of times it's that sense of self that's so neglected and

395
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,830
broken within a person that they

396
00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:35,350
puff themselves up. That's more the grandiose. You know, it's,

397
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:39,870
you know, kind of manipulative and more. But the COVID is more like

398
00:26:40,370 --> 00:26:43,750
the victim type person where it's more passive aggressive.

399
00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:46,390
It's still an inner broken sense of self.

400
00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:50,790
But that. It can definitely be linked to that as well.

401
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:55,670
Wow. And effect on children,

402
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:59,160
adult children, little children. Do you

403
00:26:59,660 --> 00:27:03,160
work with children yourself? So I will be. I don't right now. I work with

404
00:27:03,660 --> 00:27:07,040
kids as young as 12, a lot of teenagers. And,

405
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,160
and I. You're talking about the, the midlife crisis and how it affects

406
00:27:12,660 --> 00:27:16,120
the kids. Yeah, that's a really, that's a big

407
00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:20,040
one because obviously kids are the ones that are the

408
00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:24,000
most affected. Anytime a relationship ends, you know, lives are

409
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,600
disintegrated, but it is. So the traumatic component is that it's so

410
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:31,670
sudden. And usually the bomb drop is everything blowing up,

411
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:35,350
you know, and they're. Someone's moving out, someone's leaving someone.

412
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:38,870
And so the kids are just so bewildered, they. There's no

413
00:27:39,370 --> 00:27:42,870
chance to sit down and have a rational again. This will

414
00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:46,830
require rational, logical conversation with co parents that

415
00:27:47,330 --> 00:27:50,910
are working together for the best of the kids. But when you have a MLC

416
00:27:51,410 --> 00:27:55,340
or that's spiraling and running, they're not even in that kind

417
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,260
of headspace to be able to have a conversation. Yeah. You know, like,

418
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,820
that is so hard. On so many levels because most people just don't get

419
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,460
it that it's, you know, wait you didn't even have a conversation about this.

420
00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:12,100
You know, it just happened so fast and irrational.

421
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:15,980
Right. And the betrayal trauma for the left behind spouse is so

422
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,260
disorienting. Many people liken it to like

423
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,300
a death, really a traumatic death, but the person

424
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,420
still lives and breathes and walks around. So, you know,

425
00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:31,940
the devastation of, you know, if it was a real loss, you have people that

426
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,700
are coming around you and supporting you and bringing, you know, food and helping you

427
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,380
with your kids and. But this is so disorienting and out of

428
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,380
character and so many people are shocked that they don't know what to believe.

429
00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:46,620
It just seems so unreal. So they

430
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,140
tend to pull away. So for the left behind spouse, who's usually the one that's

431
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,960
trying to help the children as well as themselves, feels very isolated.

432
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,400
So it is really devastating for the. Entire family,

433
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,640
especially if, if the spouse, if the MLC is

434
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:07,680
also claiming abuse and rewriting history

435
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,120
and, you know, going in that direction.

436
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,480
Yes, yes. And that's part of the dissociation, I think,

437
00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:19,120
because if the reality of what they've done is true,

438
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,360
like all of the facts are there, like they've blown their life

439
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:27,480
up there, they've made all these decisions, and you have to deal with those

440
00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:31,160
things like a normal, securely attached person would have to deal. You would

441
00:29:31,660 --> 00:29:35,600
have to deal with remorse and guilt. But because they are so avoidant and

442
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:40,000
dissociated from those types of emotions, the only way to justify

443
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,920
the behavior that they're doing is to create a narrative that

444
00:29:44,420 --> 00:29:48,210
it would make sense if the left behind spouse was the abuser. And so we

445
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:51,050
talked a little bit before we started recording about Darvo.

446
00:29:51,930 --> 00:29:55,650
Deny, attack, reverse the victim and the offender,

447
00:29:56,150 --> 00:29:59,530
which is what happens a lot of times where they

448
00:30:00,030 --> 00:30:03,130
deny what they've done and then they start to attack the left behind person,

449
00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:06,330
and then they reverse the role of who is the victim and who is the

450
00:30:06,830 --> 00:30:10,210
offender, which is a whole other level of trauma for

451
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:14,250
the left behind spouse. Because not only are you wrestling with what just happened to

452
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:18,820
you, now you're having to defend yourself. And a whole narrative is being spun.

453
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:23,140
Some of the MLCRs are taking legal action, they're threatening,

454
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,820
they're doing really, really out of character things,

455
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,300
which it's. It's horrific, you know, to have to go through

456
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,260
and to navigate. Yeah, it really is.

457
00:30:35,220 --> 00:30:36,340
That is for sure.

458
00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:42,240
And okay, so I know you. You do a lot of

459
00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:46,280
work with trauma. Do you, do you have any clients that are going through mlc?

460
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,480
So as soon as, you know, I learned everything I could about this.

461
00:30:51,980 --> 00:30:55,680
I went to my supervisor at work and I said, listen, like, this is

462
00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:59,000
a phenomenon and counselors are not being trained about this. Like, I almost felt like

463
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:02,640
I had this mission. I had to educate, you know, everyone in the

464
00:31:03,140 --> 00:31:06,200
mental health field. And I hear that so much from left behind spouses is like,

465
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,700
the counselor is not helpful. They don't. And so obviously

466
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,740
this is not a diagnosable mental disorder. Um, it's not

467
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,260
in the dsm. It has some dissociative features to it. It has some narcissistic

468
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,060
features to it. It has a, you know, a lot of, of of other things

469
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:27,540
in it as well. A lot of things from trauma. Um,

470
00:31:27,860 --> 00:31:30,540
but when I went to her and told her, she's like, you know, I have

471
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,220
a client that is going through that right now. She's like, can I pick your

472
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,220
brain about this? And we had like an hour and a half, two hour conversation

473
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,120
where I explained the phenomenon. I did a training with my colleagues

474
00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:44,760
at work explaining the phenomenon and

475
00:31:45,260 --> 00:31:48,440
a lot. And I've, I've had several people come now that they. He have heard

476
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:52,720
that I work with. Wait, let me back up. So when, when you explained

477
00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:56,520
it to your. When you had the little training for your colleagues, I, I assume

478
00:31:57,020 --> 00:31:59,440
this was relatively new to them. Like you were opening the door to, hey,

479
00:31:59,940 --> 00:32:03,160
you guys, this is a thing. What was their reaction?

480
00:32:04,770 --> 00:32:08,450
I think, I think when the left behind spouse would

481
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:12,130
come, because that's normally who comes for the counseling, you know, they,

482
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:16,610
they would, they would treat it, you know, like a runaway spouse. But that

483
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:20,610
whole other layer of this is more than just a runaway spouse.

484
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:24,770
This is, yeah, immediate discard. The darvo.

485
00:32:25,090 --> 00:32:28,450
The extreme betrayal after effect.

486
00:32:28,850 --> 00:32:32,290
And I think, I think sometimes the counselors may even think,

487
00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:36,030
well, surely there had to have been things wrong in the marri. Right.

488
00:32:36,190 --> 00:32:39,750
That person's just not aware of. And so I think what's

489
00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:44,070
so hard is, is that not necessarily like. Of course all

490
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:48,030
marriages could use improvement. And most will say, my marriage wasn't

491
00:32:48,530 --> 00:32:52,030
perfect, but it was not anywhere near that would warrant something

492
00:32:52,530 --> 00:32:56,390
like this. And I think that's really hard for the rational person to wrap

493
00:32:56,890 --> 00:33:01,150
their head around unless you understand what's going on with this and

494
00:33:01,650 --> 00:33:07,620
also how to handle it. Because you kind of have to use reverse

495
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,340
way of thinking when you're dealing with these people.

496
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:14,620
Wait, with the left behind spouse. The left behind spouse, dealing with the

497
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,300
mlc or you have to almost use a different kind of approach than you

498
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,060
normally would. So a lot of counselors may use conventional, you know,

499
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,780
like Have a rational conversation with them. Well, you cannot do that.

500
00:33:26,020 --> 00:33:29,140
That's not going to happen. So it ends

501
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,170
up not being helpful. And I think counsel must be frustrating.

502
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:37,130
Yes. And it can actually set them back because I think the left

503
00:33:37,630 --> 00:33:41,530
behind spouse thinks that, you know, something's wrong with them and

504
00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:45,810
they're going to take on, you know, all of that guilt and shame too.

505
00:33:46,770 --> 00:33:49,730
So, yeah, I really hope that we can come,

506
00:33:50,050 --> 00:33:53,250
especially with podcasts like this and other resources that are out there to

507
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:57,570
really get the word out about what sad that you're. You trained a team

508
00:33:57,970 --> 00:34:01,010
to recognize it and obviously you're going to be.

509
00:34:01,090 --> 00:34:05,010
You're available to them to continue advancing

510
00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:07,730
that knowledge, you know, so that they can.

511
00:34:08,690 --> 00:34:11,810
Yeah. Work with folks. Because that is the hardest thing. My next question was going

512
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:15,410
to be, well, how do people find a therapist that truly knows and understands mlc?

513
00:34:15,490 --> 00:34:19,010
Because it is one of the biggest complaints and,

514
00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:22,610
and concerns and requests that. That we hear, you know,

515
00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:25,940
is how do we find somebody to help us with this? You know,

516
00:34:27,620 --> 00:34:31,060
having a therapist that. That understands betrayal trauma.

517
00:34:31,220 --> 00:34:34,660
You know, if they don't understand midlife crisis phenomenon,

518
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:38,260
at least they are experienced in betrayal trauma because

519
00:34:38,340 --> 00:34:41,380
that is what's going to be needed. Um,

520
00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:45,660
and when people hear midlife crisis, they think of the sensationalized,

521
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,980
you know, new hair, new car kind of thing, where they may understand a midlife

522
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,990
transition, but not the type of crisis that this is.

523
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:58,070
Um, so somebody that understands trauma, complex trauma

524
00:34:58,150 --> 00:35:01,670
and betrayal trauma would be a really good combination and ask

525
00:35:02,170 --> 00:35:05,350
a lot of questions. It's okay for you to interview a therapist before you decide

526
00:35:05,850 --> 00:35:08,350
to work with them to make sure they're going to be a good fit for

527
00:35:08,850 --> 00:35:10,830
you. I always say, you go to the shoe store, you're not going to buy

528
00:35:11,330 --> 00:35:14,070
the first pair of shoes that you try on. Right. You're going to try until

529
00:35:14,570 --> 00:35:17,420
you find a pair that is comfortable that you like. Same thing with counsel counseling.

530
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,380
Don't see a counselor and just kind of throw everything out the window and be

531
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,340
like, well, that didn't work for me. Keep trying until you find a good fit,

532
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,780
because it makes all the difference. That's a really good point. I'm glad you said

533
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,820
that. Are there certain kind of questions that they.

534
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,700
You should ask? I guess, obviously, if they're familiar with midlife crisis.

535
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:40,300
Familiar with betrayal. Yeah. Asking how,

536
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,740
you know, how long they've been working in that field, that specific demographic

537
00:35:45,690 --> 00:35:48,970
is okay to ask. It's important. A lot

538
00:35:49,470 --> 00:35:53,290
of times you can get referrals if, if that person is

539
00:35:53,790 --> 00:35:57,290
really booked up and Has a wait list, Join the wait list. You never know

540
00:35:57,450 --> 00:35:58,970
when they'll have availability.

541
00:36:00,570 --> 00:36:04,570
But asking, yeah, their expertise, what has been their success?

542
00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:08,410
You know, what do you deem as success rate? Not necessarily that you get back

543
00:36:08,910 --> 00:36:12,220
together, but you know, how long have

544
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,500
they. Well, and also then for the, let's say

545
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,140
an mlseer went to you recognizing that

546
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,980
they're, you know, blowing up their life, maybe not feeling right,

547
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,940
their brain fog, all that kind of stuff. How, how do, how do

548
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,500
they get counseled? Like how do you that, I mean that is just.

549
00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:37,100
This is the hard part because, and, and I think I hear this

550
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,940
too is the MLC might go to counseling.

551
00:36:40,510 --> 00:36:43,470
Um, and the counselor can only do with what they're told.

552
00:36:43,970 --> 00:36:47,510
If they're not being honest counseling, they can only go with

553
00:36:48,010 --> 00:36:52,270
what they're told. So the MLC may go in there with their rescripted narrative and

554
00:36:52,770 --> 00:36:56,069
say, you know, my spouse was an abusive person. Well, they're going to begin

555
00:36:56,569 --> 00:37:00,030
to give you advice, you know, as if that's so. But I will say that

556
00:37:00,530 --> 00:37:04,870
a really trained counselor is going to see the inconsistencies and

557
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:08,660
they're going to see some things, you know, you can.

558
00:37:08,740 --> 00:37:11,860
The thing with telling a lie is that you forget the lies you tell.

559
00:37:12,020 --> 00:37:15,580
You have to tell other lies to cover up. There's going to be holes

560
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,580
in the story. So a really good counselor is going to, going to see that

561
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,140
and ask some questions. But really until they're ready

562
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,540
to get honest, it's going to be really hard for counseling to work,

563
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,700
especially marriage counseling. I would say marriage counseling is not going to work

564
00:37:32,430 --> 00:37:35,710
if the honesty is not there. Because whenever there's

565
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:39,950
been a betrayal, there has to be what's called a disclosure where all of

566
00:37:40,450 --> 00:37:42,990
the facts and information are laid out on the table. And I think for an

567
00:37:43,490 --> 00:37:47,710
MLC or brand new in this process, they don't, aren't able to do that or

568
00:37:48,210 --> 00:37:51,590
willing to do that. So traditional marriage therapy is not going

569
00:37:52,090 --> 00:37:52,350
to be effective.

570
00:37:55,630 --> 00:37:59,330
Okay. Jenny, do you ever feel like the Lord put this, put you on

571
00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:03,850
this path so that you can help enlighten and educate others

572
00:38:04,090 --> 00:38:07,530
and, and truly help other folks?

573
00:38:09,050 --> 00:38:12,970
So that is a huge question. And honestly like trauma

574
00:38:13,470 --> 00:38:17,090
was a part of my life before this ever happened. I, I, I'm had childhood

575
00:38:17,590 --> 00:38:21,330
trauma, spiritually abusive trauma. I was in practically

576
00:38:21,830 --> 00:38:25,810
a cult like environment. Um, I had breast cancer in 2013 that I

577
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:29,600
survived. And so going through all of that and then to experience

578
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,640
this, I've always said anything

579
00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:36,600
that happens to me I want to use it to help other People. But I

580
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:40,080
will say that this was something I did not want. Like,

581
00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:42,840
I was really angry. I did not want this to be part of my story.

582
00:38:43,340 --> 00:38:46,680
I didn't want to help anybody else. I didn't want this to be, you know,

583
00:38:47,180 --> 00:38:50,560
but it is. And I would say, you know, two years out, at this point,

584
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,400
I have a level of gratefulness, and I. That's a really

585
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:57,520
hard word, I think, for a lot of people to wrap their head around on

586
00:38:58,020 --> 00:39:00,800
the front end of this. And that's okay. You might not be there for a

587
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,680
long time. And some days I'm not grateful. Some days I'm still angry,

588
00:39:05,180 --> 00:39:08,200
I'm still grieving. But I'm grateful for opportunities,

589
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,240
I think, you know, and I am a person of faith. So when God puts

590
00:39:11,740 --> 00:39:15,080
somebody in my path and I can see it, and I know

591
00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:18,440
exactly what it feels like, you know, I can speak to it,

592
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,040
and I know the things to ask and the questions to ask, and so

593
00:39:25,170 --> 00:39:28,930
definitely don't think it was God's plan for this to happen, but I think that

594
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:32,370
he's using it in my life to help other people.

595
00:39:33,410 --> 00:39:36,530
I love that. I love that you got to a point where

596
00:39:36,610 --> 00:39:40,050
you can see, you know, be grateful, and that. That's huge.

597
00:39:41,650 --> 00:39:45,250
Yes. Yes. I am a different person. I miss

598
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:49,010
parts of the old me, but also I'm

599
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:52,770
grateful for a lot of the new parts of this new person that I've become.

600
00:39:53,010 --> 00:39:56,300
I'm not afraid of anything anymore. And I

601
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,900
used to be so afraid of what people thought about me. So it's. It's bittersweet

602
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:04,980
in so many ways. And I think people listening that may be a little

603
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,060
further in will know exactly what I'm talking about. You probably can identify with that,

604
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,260
too. Yep. But I think what is so helpful for me to

605
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,580
know that I'm not the only one. And I hope somebody's listening to this and

606
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,620
they can say that, like, I'm not the only one. That's so important. And that

607
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,060
is that. That is the whole thing of this podcast and our guests, is to

608
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,540
let that person that just had a bomb drop yesterday or this morning, if they

609
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,420
stumble upon this. I mean, if it was this morning, they probably aren't stumbling upon

610
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,700
this. But seriously, if it's just been within a few days, I really want them

611
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,900
to know that you are not alone. This horrendous

612
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,460
thing happened to you. And, you know, it's. It's a. It's a thing.

613
00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:47,900
And don't take it personally. There's nothing you could have done for your marriage.

614
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,180
There's nothing extra you could have done. That's the thing. And yeah,

615
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,420
people blaming themselves and, and thinking, oh, if they'd

616
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,700
done this or done that, it wouldn't have happened. It's like this, this bomb was

617
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,220
going to drop. It was going to happen. Right. And realize your

618
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:08,460
partner was with, you know. Yes. And realizing, you know, yes,

619
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,100
we all have areas we can improve for sure. But realizing. So a

620
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,420
lot of us have taken the burden onto ourselves to be the fixers.

621
00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:18,860
And when we make ourselves the problem, that means we can fix it. And it

622
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,420
gives us a level of control. And when we realize this is

623
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,100
not about us, it's scary because now we can't fix it.

624
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,660
But in letting go of it and focusing on our healing,

625
00:41:30,980 --> 00:41:34,420
that is the most important part. So it is very disorienting at first.

626
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,060
It's like an undoing of everything that you've known and the role that you've existed

627
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,670
and the way you've handled things and you have to learn a new way.

628
00:41:42,830 --> 00:41:46,430
But it's also very freeing too. It is

629
00:41:46,930 --> 00:41:50,910
freeing. And you know, you realize, wow, you find strength within yourself

630
00:41:50,990 --> 00:41:54,710
that you never in a million years would have thought, you know,

631
00:41:55,210 --> 00:41:58,590
which is crazy. Um, and, and I meet so many

632
00:41:58,670 --> 00:42:02,790
women especially and men that are just amazing

633
00:42:03,290 --> 00:42:07,060
that have had their spouses, you know, it's primarily women though, that or the

634
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,580
left behind spouse or forward moving spouse. But yeah, just amazing

635
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,980
women that are so strong a few years out because at the,

636
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,860
at first you're crumbling for many months, you know.

637
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:21,780
Yes. And people say it'll get better. And you don't believe it.

638
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,620
Oh, you totally don't believe it. Believe it. Because it's the worst pain you've ever

639
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,860
experienced. You literally feel, feel like you're going, your body's going to break apart.

640
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,760
Like that's the only way I can explain it. Like facing the carpet, guttural screaming,

641
00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:37,480
crying. It is the worst feeling. But it,

642
00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:41,680
it's temporary. There is peace that comes. There is

643
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,840
joy that comes. There is a life that's worth living that comes.

644
00:42:46,340 --> 00:42:48,800
So it's just getting through, through that period.

645
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,840
Getting through the trauma one day at a time. Yeah. And just hanging

646
00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:56,480
in there because it does get better. And again, it does.

647
00:42:56,980 --> 00:43:00,280
You will wake up one day. So if you just experience a bomb drop,

648
00:43:00,780 --> 00:43:05,020
you literally will wake up one day and be grateful for.

649
00:43:05,260 --> 00:43:09,100
For what? It's, what it's, you know, brought into your

650
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,260
life, I guess for the person that you evolve into. Because you do become

651
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,060
a different person. You do. Yeah. And yeah, I've Even

652
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,460
said that to my friends. It's like, yeah, it's. The old Trina is

653
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,500
no more. There's now this Trina.

654
00:43:24,860 --> 00:43:27,340
But anyway. All right,

655
00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:32,060
so we've got. Okay. How to find a good therapist situation. Any other

656
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,480
pointers you want to share with our listeners today? I just

657
00:43:36,980 --> 00:43:40,120
say don't put a timeline on it. I, I think

658
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,720
our society does a disservice to grief anyway,

659
00:43:44,220 --> 00:43:47,080
of any kind. Like, there's a timeline. You should be over it by now.

660
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,360
This is, this is such a devastation to your

661
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:55,040
soul all the way down to the core of who you are. Especially if you

662
00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:58,600
know this is your person that you were doing life with, you've built a family

663
00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:03,140
with, if you've had a long term relationship with. Like, um, so it's

664
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,500
going to take time and there's no timeline. You might think you're doing

665
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,380
well and have a really bad setback. Um, that almost feels

666
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,740
like you're unraveling all over again. And so it's just part of the process.

667
00:44:14,820 --> 00:44:17,980
The only way around is straight through that.

668
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,020
You know, let yourself experience the emotions, whatever they are, and find people

669
00:44:22,340 --> 00:44:26,180
that give you permission to feel any way that you need to feel.

670
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,870
Because you're going to need that and you're going to think, oh, I don't want

671
00:44:30,370 --> 00:44:32,910
to be a burden. They're sick of hearing about this. I know they are.

672
00:44:33,150 --> 00:44:36,670
Find people that aren't that can say, you can talk about

673
00:44:37,170 --> 00:44:40,030
it as much as you need to with me because that is going to be

674
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:42,910
so helpful and help you to feel like you're not alone.

675
00:44:44,030 --> 00:44:47,470
Do you recommend to patients or clients

676
00:44:48,590 --> 00:44:52,550
to journal or do other self care kind

677
00:44:53,050 --> 00:44:56,530
of things? Yes. My therapist told me journal. I said, I don't like journaling.

678
00:44:57,030 --> 00:45:00,210
She says, you're gonna journal. She was a little hard on me, but I really

679
00:45:00,710 --> 00:45:03,450
loved her for it and I did. I don't like to write by hand,

680
00:45:03,950 --> 00:45:07,370
so I would type in the notes on my computer, but I would write letters

681
00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:11,770
to my MLC ER and I would let it fly. I would write letters

682
00:45:12,270 --> 00:45:16,010
to myself. I would write down conversations. I would. And processing

683
00:45:16,510 --> 00:45:20,250
that was so helpful. And I've gone back and reread it and it really has

684
00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:24,250
been healing for me to see where I was. Um, and I've continued. And how

685
00:45:24,750 --> 00:45:28,690
far you've come. How far I've come, Exactly. So if you're not a journaler,

686
00:45:28,930 --> 00:45:32,690
reconsider. It really is a great tool.

687
00:45:34,210 --> 00:45:37,810
Yeah. And actually, even now, people could just voice record.

688
00:45:38,209 --> 00:45:41,010
They could do anything just to get it off their chest. And out of their

689
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:44,210
head so they're not ruminating or whatever. Yeah.

690
00:45:44,930 --> 00:45:48,770
Okay. So are you pretty optimistic for the future of

691
00:45:48,930 --> 00:45:52,370
therapy and when it comes to MLCRs and. And this,

692
00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:56,130
you know, ailment? I am, but I feel

693
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:59,850
a fire in me that I really. And I. I did go back to school

694
00:46:00,350 --> 00:46:03,210
to get my clinical licensure. I will be finished in the spring of next year.

695
00:46:03,710 --> 00:46:07,050
And I'm really hoping to, like, delve into the research part of this,

696
00:46:07,550 --> 00:46:11,290
too. I think we could definitely advocate for more

697
00:46:11,790 --> 00:46:14,810
therapists to be aware and be able to help and, And.

698
00:46:15,310 --> 00:46:17,690
And people maybe that have gone through this, that have thought, you know what,

699
00:46:18,180 --> 00:46:21,260
I might go back to school. I think I might become a life coach or

700
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,420
become a therapist myself. We need you. So it's so funny you say that because,

701
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,860
yeah, I'm, you know, psychology major, BA in psychology and

702
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:33,860
did. I didn't finish out my master's, but yeah, it's. Now it's

703
00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:38,140
probably life coach direction would be easier than going back to masters,

704
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,420
but still, there's. I think when you go through something and you do want to

705
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,870
help share and spread awareness and. And be there for others so they know that

706
00:46:46,110 --> 00:46:49,790
they're not alone. You know, that's just huge. We want to help.

707
00:46:50,190 --> 00:46:53,870
Help everybody, you know, have their truth and. And,

708
00:46:54,750 --> 00:46:58,350
you know, know that they're not. I don't want people to be a victim.

709
00:46:58,850 --> 00:47:02,030
I want them to be a warrior. See this through, become grateful.

710
00:47:02,530 --> 00:47:06,310
I love that. So, yeah, makes them stronger. All right,

711
00:47:06,810 --> 00:47:10,110
well, thank you, Jenny. Thank you so much today for this. And we'll probably,

712
00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:13,610
you know, have you back another time as you're in

713
00:47:14,110 --> 00:47:17,810
this program and continuing to learn all kinds of stuff. Yeah.

714
00:47:18,310 --> 00:47:21,770
Thank you so much for having me. Of course. All right, thanks, Jenny.

715
00:47:29,050 --> 00:47:33,010
Thank you so much for joining us today on Midlife Crisis Bomb Drop and

716
00:47:33,510 --> 00:47:36,730
beyond. If you've been through a midlife crisis or

717
00:47:37,230 --> 00:47:38,110
been impacted foreign.

718
00:47:43,470 --> 00:47:47,310
Thanks again, you guys, for tuning in to Midlife Crisis Bomb Drop and beyond.

719
00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:50,790
We have passed over a thousand downloads. We have hundreds of

720
00:47:51,290 --> 00:47:54,790
subscribers, if not over a thousand or two thousand already. So I just

721
00:47:55,290 --> 00:47:58,590
want to say thank you. I'm. How grateful I am for every single one

722
00:47:59,090 --> 00:48:03,030
of you that's listening and that has taken the time to be interviewed and

723
00:48:03,530 --> 00:48:06,070
appear on this show. I have a waiting list of people I'm trying to get

724
00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:08,350
to. So hang in there. We will get to you.

725
00:48:09,630 --> 00:48:13,310
I really appreciate it, and I'm so glad to hear that everybody is

726
00:48:13,550 --> 00:48:17,270
enjoying the show so much, and I know it provides a lot

727
00:48:17,770 --> 00:48:21,590
of support, so thank you so much for that. And if

728
00:48:22,090 --> 00:48:25,190
you've been through a midlife crisis or been impacted by someone else's

729
00:48:25,690 --> 00:48:28,750
and you want to share your story, I'd love to hear from you. Please reach

730
00:48:29,250 --> 00:48:32,830
out to me. Trina lairdmail.com

731
00:48:33,590 --> 00:48:39,350
you can also find me on Facebook at mlcbombdrop or Instagram mlcbombdrop.

732
00:48:39,510 --> 00:48:42,710
So reach out however you like. Your voice matters.

733
00:48:43,210 --> 00:48:45,670
Your story could be the one that helps someone else feel seen,

734
00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:49,429
heard and understood. Until next time,

735
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:51,830
take care and keep standing in your truth.